Post by Diarist on Aug 4, 2016 19:19:40 GMT 1
After lunch I called John Mitchell at Vickers-Armstrong to see if he had arrived back from America. He had so I asked when can meet. Maybe at Hawker Aviation to watch the maiden flight of their fighter. He suggested Wednesday afternoon. I suggested Wednesday lunch together then Hawker. We agreed upon that.
General Gort arrived at 13:30 and I briefed him about Basil's visit this morning. The idea of using the 25-pdr instead of the 17-pdr means that we could theoretically start building the ISV and tank-hunter next year instead of 1938.
"That is excellent news, Bob. That means we can give the current ISV's to Infantry Divisions, right?"
"Sir, that's we are doing at the moment. The 1st Infantry's receiving them, and they can keep them."
"Yes, of course." We were both laughing.
COL Wilkins came to my office and reminded me that it's 13:45. "Here's all the files you requested, Bob."
"Thank you. You ready, General?"
"As ready as I can be."
Just like last week we were last to arrive. After the greetings we took our seats at the table. Two on our side, a dozen opposite us.
Churchill opened the meeting, "Thank you, General for this very detailed document. You have obviously tried to anticipate our questions and have provided very constructive arguments. The main problem is still the 17-pdr tank gun not being available until mid-1937 at the earliest. We understand that priority is correctly being given to the 6-pdr so it has been suggested this gun also be used in the tank-hunter."
"A good suggestion, Sir. I have two answers for you. Number one, the mid-1937 date is for Vickers-Armstrong. There is no reason why someone else couldn't produce it earlier. Number two, Basil Liddel-Hart visited me this morning. He is now Head of the Land Division of Vickers-Armstrong in case you didn't know. He suggested we use the 25-pdr gun. It fires HE and anti-tank ammunition and there are plenty available. We could start building the tank-hunter next year as soon as the tank engine is being produced in decent numbers. We shall need to design better anti-tank ammunition though. That way, the 17-pdr can be used as the main armament for the next generation tank. We'll need an awful lot of 6-pdr guns to replace the 2-pdr AT-Gun assigned to infantry units."
"That is an excellent idea. I'm in favour of it," Churchill said.
"What's wrong with the current AT ammunition, Major?" LG Hugh Elles asked. (Master-General of the Ordnance.)
"It's just a pointed block of metal at the moment and relies on kinetic energy to penetrate the target, Sir. Our scientists are working on a more effective explosive ammunition."
"And when will this be available?"
"Tizard's favourite answer is, 'Ask me again in 1938'."
"So we are back to 1938 again."
"No, Sir. We use the current ammunition until the new design is available. That's 1936, Sir. Not '38."
General Gort added, "That means the current ISV's can continue being fielded to infantry divisions. An armoured division doesn't need them."
"Organized as armour?"
"Yes, Sir because they are armour, not artillery. The ISV is a tank without a turret, not self-propelled artillery. When we receive SP-artillery next year you will easily recognize the difference."
Churchill got involved again. "The 25-pdr is a good solution and we'll adopt it. Inform Vickers to produce a prototype as soon as sufficient engines are available."
"I'll do that today, Sir."
"The next issue is the idea of creating four brigades and your suggested commanders. Only one of them is British."
"LTC Crerar is a Canadian, Sir. That's almost British."
"True, but the other two are American and French."
"And when they go home they will take this knowledge with them. That's why TRADOC was created. To share ideas with our potential allies."
"But they won't be commanding our armour divisions," MG Gordon-Finlayson argued. (GOC 3rd Infantry Division.)
"BG Hobart, a British officer, will hopefully be a Major-General in a few years. That means you people in the War Office have two years to locate three current brigadiers and train them how to command an armoured division then promote them when they take command of the division. I wish my job were that easy," with a smile on my face. Others were smiling too.
"Let's be quite clear about this issue, Mr. Secretary," I continued. "None of the generals here today will be commanding one of these four armoured divisions. They'll either be Lieutenant-Generals, i.e. Corps commanders, or considered non-promotable and definitely won't get command of an armoured division. The future commanders are now brigadiers or maybe promotable colonels. The Corps commanders will need to know how to utilize an armoured division effectively if one is assigned to their Corps."
"I agree. Hopefully the other two will be commanding a French and a US armoured division."
"I have absolutely no doubt there, Sir. If I may add, in 1937 at the latest we should be forming four more armoured brigades so that there will be eight armoured divisions in 1939."
"That's something else we need to consider. There was a question about the motorized infantry. Apparently we don't have suitable lorries."
"Unfortunately that's correct, Sir. I know that Vickers are designing a series of 4x6 vehicles based on the captured German vehicle in Poland. I intend visiting Lord Nuffield this week to see what progress they are making."
"I want to go there too. When are you going?"
"Any day but Wednesday. I already have something scheduled on that day."
"Tomorrow then. I'll have COL Thomson make the necessary arrangements. Anything else?"
"If the proposal has been accepted we need to consider which infantry brigades will be converted to armoured brigades. Or do we create new battalions with cadres coming from battalions within a regiment?"
"The latter."
"May I suggest that four battalion commanders in the Royal Tank Corps become deputy commanders in the four armoured brigades? They would be brigadiers in a few years."
"Yes and they should also bring a cadre with them for the armoured battalion."
"Are sure you don't want to use current cavalry battalions, Sir. They'll soon be unemployed."
"We'll discuss that tomorrow. Unless there is anything else that can't wait let us finish for today. Thank you, gentlemen."
General Gort arrived at 13:30 and I briefed him about Basil's visit this morning. The idea of using the 25-pdr instead of the 17-pdr means that we could theoretically start building the ISV and tank-hunter next year instead of 1938.
"That is excellent news, Bob. That means we can give the current ISV's to Infantry Divisions, right?"
"Sir, that's we are doing at the moment. The 1st Infantry's receiving them, and they can keep them."
"Yes, of course." We were both laughing.
COL Wilkins came to my office and reminded me that it's 13:45. "Here's all the files you requested, Bob."
"Thank you. You ready, General?"
"As ready as I can be."
Just like last week we were last to arrive. After the greetings we took our seats at the table. Two on our side, a dozen opposite us.
Churchill opened the meeting, "Thank you, General for this very detailed document. You have obviously tried to anticipate our questions and have provided very constructive arguments. The main problem is still the 17-pdr tank gun not being available until mid-1937 at the earliest. We understand that priority is correctly being given to the 6-pdr so it has been suggested this gun also be used in the tank-hunter."
"A good suggestion, Sir. I have two answers for you. Number one, the mid-1937 date is for Vickers-Armstrong. There is no reason why someone else couldn't produce it earlier. Number two, Basil Liddel-Hart visited me this morning. He is now Head of the Land Division of Vickers-Armstrong in case you didn't know. He suggested we use the 25-pdr gun. It fires HE and anti-tank ammunition and there are plenty available. We could start building the tank-hunter next year as soon as the tank engine is being produced in decent numbers. We shall need to design better anti-tank ammunition though. That way, the 17-pdr can be used as the main armament for the next generation tank. We'll need an awful lot of 6-pdr guns to replace the 2-pdr AT-Gun assigned to infantry units."
"That is an excellent idea. I'm in favour of it," Churchill said.
"What's wrong with the current AT ammunition, Major?" LG Hugh Elles asked. (Master-General of the Ordnance.)
"It's just a pointed block of metal at the moment and relies on kinetic energy to penetrate the target, Sir. Our scientists are working on a more effective explosive ammunition."
"And when will this be available?"
"Tizard's favourite answer is, 'Ask me again in 1938'."
"So we are back to 1938 again."
"No, Sir. We use the current ammunition until the new design is available. That's 1936, Sir. Not '38."
General Gort added, "That means the current ISV's can continue being fielded to infantry divisions. An armoured division doesn't need them."
"Organized as armour?"
"Yes, Sir because they are armour, not artillery. The ISV is a tank without a turret, not self-propelled artillery. When we receive SP-artillery next year you will easily recognize the difference."
Churchill got involved again. "The 25-pdr is a good solution and we'll adopt it. Inform Vickers to produce a prototype as soon as sufficient engines are available."
"I'll do that today, Sir."
"The next issue is the idea of creating four brigades and your suggested commanders. Only one of them is British."
"LTC Crerar is a Canadian, Sir. That's almost British."
"True, but the other two are American and French."
"And when they go home they will take this knowledge with them. That's why TRADOC was created. To share ideas with our potential allies."
"But they won't be commanding our armour divisions," MG Gordon-Finlayson argued. (GOC 3rd Infantry Division.)
"BG Hobart, a British officer, will hopefully be a Major-General in a few years. That means you people in the War Office have two years to locate three current brigadiers and train them how to command an armoured division then promote them when they take command of the division. I wish my job were that easy," with a smile on my face. Others were smiling too.
"Let's be quite clear about this issue, Mr. Secretary," I continued. "None of the generals here today will be commanding one of these four armoured divisions. They'll either be Lieutenant-Generals, i.e. Corps commanders, or considered non-promotable and definitely won't get command of an armoured division. The future commanders are now brigadiers or maybe promotable colonels. The Corps commanders will need to know how to utilize an armoured division effectively if one is assigned to their Corps."
"I agree. Hopefully the other two will be commanding a French and a US armoured division."
"I have absolutely no doubt there, Sir. If I may add, in 1937 at the latest we should be forming four more armoured brigades so that there will be eight armoured divisions in 1939."
"That's something else we need to consider. There was a question about the motorized infantry. Apparently we don't have suitable lorries."
"Unfortunately that's correct, Sir. I know that Vickers are designing a series of 4x6 vehicles based on the captured German vehicle in Poland. I intend visiting Lord Nuffield this week to see what progress they are making."
"I want to go there too. When are you going?"
"Any day but Wednesday. I already have something scheduled on that day."
"Tomorrow then. I'll have COL Thomson make the necessary arrangements. Anything else?"
"If the proposal has been accepted we need to consider which infantry brigades will be converted to armoured brigades. Or do we create new battalions with cadres coming from battalions within a regiment?"
"The latter."
"May I suggest that four battalion commanders in the Royal Tank Corps become deputy commanders in the four armoured brigades? They would be brigadiers in a few years."
"Yes and they should also bring a cadre with them for the armoured battalion."
"Are sure you don't want to use current cavalry battalions, Sir. They'll soon be unemployed."
"We'll discuss that tomorrow. Unless there is anything else that can't wait let us finish for today. Thank you, gentlemen."